Wednesday, July 15, 2009

Salt question

I guess this is for Mel, or anybody who has an opinion,

I tend to have major stomach cramping problems in the summer and I think it is a result of not regulating sodium/electrolytes properly. I an article by runners world that Mel posted some time ago it states you can lose up to 3000mg of sodium per hour if heavy sweating. I don't think that even if that is replaced durning a run per hour the body could absorb that. How much is the max to take in per hour for an extended race, 4-6 hours, with out an risk of too much. And what would be the symptoms of too much. And also, if you were to finish a race and be depleted of sodium, and not replace the correct amount, how much time would it take for your body to equalize naturally or would it become a chronic state of hyponatremia ? Especially if one was to continue to trail in the following days?
Also, if you have time, http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/hyponatremia.html

how common is the third example in this artical and what are the symptoms?

Any suggestions would be great, thanks.

Travis

21 comments:

alyssa said...

I'm not melissa but if you go through past issues of ultrarunning they tend to have a lot of articles on salt and electrolytes. I do know that the symptoms of having too much salt are the same of having too little, which is why it's so hard to find a balance for each individual.

I sweat like a dude, so this is what I do, it's a very non-scientific approach but it works 95% of the time:
If it's "Africa" hot, I use S!Caps at 2 an hour. Then I mostly go with water and coke, not sports drink.

If it's just normal hot, I use endurolytes, 2 an hour for the first half of the race, then taper to one an hour plus a sports drink.

Travis said...

Thanks, I would love a detailed overview of your nutrition plan. I have been using cytomax and if it is cool can run forever on just that. If it is hot I am s-caps, gels, and water. Can't stomach the cytomax. I can't go anywhere near perpetum. That crap is foul and I will throw it right up. So I feel I might need the protein but am not getting it. What worked at States? BTW, great job!!

Collin said...

Hey Travis,
I just had a very good experience with S-Caps over the last few days. I was pacing down here at Badwater and ran nearly half the race with my runner since he wasn't feeling very good and wanted company. Anyway, I took 1 S!-Cap (343 mg of sodium as I recall) every single mile here and felt really good over the 62 miles that I ran with him. In hot runs, it's probably quite difficult to take too many and I've never had so many that I experienced symptoms, so I can't answer that, but I do know that the major thing that happens when you get too low on sodium is that you cramp. My runner didn't take much sodium for the first 40 miles (until the other crewman decided he could literally die out there and started sneaking it into his water bottles), but before he took it, he had some of the most serious cramps I've ever seen, as in his leg would hurt so bad that he would lock up and fall down on the 180 degree pavement. Yeah, not good... Anyway, in races where I didn't pay attention to sodium (see Rocky Raccoon this year...) I have had some very very bad performances, but in other races where I have kept up (see Stillwater Marathon, where I was 2:28 shy of the CR), I have done really well. Honestly, when running in the heat, which I've done a lot of lately, I think that proper sodium intake is probably the single most important factor. I'm going to be doing the Mt Disappointment 50 in a few weeks (tough rocky mountain 50 in LA-area with 100 degree temps and a bit of humidity) and I'm planning on taking around 3 S!-Caps an hour, possibly 4.

BTW, if you want to hear more about Badwater, I'm going to post some stuff on my blog as soon as I get a better internet connection.

///MM said...

Slightly off topic, but I know that while sodium is necessary during long events, having a high-sodium diet outside of those events increases your risk of getting yourself out of whack during the event. I was making the mistake recently of assuming "oh, I'm IM training so I need to eat lots of salty foods in my regular diet" and was _completely_ wrong. I'll try to find the rationale behind that and post a link or whatever when I get home.

Travis said...

Thanks for the comments, Collin, love to see pictures. Keep it up, you are an inspiration. Can't imagine that much salt, make me hurl.

alyssa said...

Dear collin,
have fun paying $795 for your death. I suppose that's cheaper than a coffin anyway.

Travis - I'll do a writeup of my nutrition for states and e-mail it to you this weekend.

Travis said...

Alyssa, pictures I need pictures, I don't get to do these things.

Collin, you rock, I think you could do any of these races and do well. But that really is a lot of salt. And what is up with the pict on your blog? Your not gay are you? Not that there is anything wrong with that.

RM said...

Did you know the average cost of a funeral is over $7000? And that Medicare may only pay for a fraction of the cost?

However it costs no money for me to put someone in a garbage can and incinerate them.

My TT bike was nearly a $7000 coffin...ha

alyssa said...

In China they wrap the body and hang it in a hammock in the living room. As the body decomposes the dead-people juices drip from the body and the families eat it over their rice for meals.

We can all thank my fine UVA education for that tidbit.

RM said...

In what terrible class did they bother to teach that to you? That's disgusting.

Pete Mulligan said...

In Baltimore City they leave you in the alley for the urban squirrels to feed on your fingertips. If you are lucky you will have been dragged to a salley port where you can rest in the cool summer shade that is Balteemo.

alyssa said...

The class was Death & Dying...very uplifting...

THE KRIS said...

wait, when did the chinese do that? look, i know that they are a godless people worthy of our scorn, but this seems beyond even the depths of their depravity. i'll have to ask donna if that's what they do.

also, for $7000 i want to be able to get into my coffin... without passing through a blender first.

also, also, bwahahahahahaah! is colin gay? travis, you love making new friends.

Collin said...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... No, I'm not. I'm just kind of sketchy I guess. hahahahahahaha. I suppose I really should change that picture though. haha....

Alyssa, actually, my death is going to cost me only $200 and that will be at the Arrowhead 135. :) Badwater seems very survivable; it's just all about nutrition and hydration, extremely high attention to your feet, and figuring out how to keep yourself from fatiguing and having to sleep.

Travis, I'm not sure how salt would make you throw up, it's probably just a correlation rather than a causation if I had to guess though. As temp increases, the amount of salt you're taking increases, as does the amount of blood flow being diverted from areas such as the stomach to work towards cooling your body. If you have less blood available to your stomach, the muscles used to keep everything down are unable to function at the same level and you'll end up throwing up. (If you're still throwing up in cooler races when you take salt, the same idea definitely applies to high levels of effort). Basically, there are 3 options for racing in heat: 1. Slow down (bad option), 2. Do drugs (bad option), 3. Heat train so that your body becomes more efficient at cooling itself.

OK, I promise my picture will be changed before I make another blog post. hahaha...

Collin said...

One other thing... there are always weird exceptions, such as Dave. He never pays any attention to salt and doesn't go out of his way to replace it, but I don't think he's ever had a bad performance in anything longer than a marathon and a lot of his races have been in pretty hot conditions. Then again, I'm pretty convinced that there's something physically wrong with his body. I mean, come on, when you drive around in your car with the heat on full blast all the time, even in the summer, because it's always "too cold", even when it's 100 and humid, something is wrong with you. hahaha...

gladfelter said...

You are nuts, and gay.

RM said...

BEST. POST. EVER.

Thanks Joel

Collin said...

Haha... speaking of heat acclimation, salt, and whatever, I just started doing sauna sessions at 185 degrees yesterday, being all inspired and whatnot by Badwater. I did 20 minutes yesterday and 22 today. Tomorrow will be 23, then 25, 26, etc. up by 1,2,1,2, so I can be at 50 minutes (supposedly where you maximize your heat adaptation) by the time I do Mt Disappointment 50 in 3 weeks in pretty hot and humid temps. I'll make sure I remember to weigh myself before and after tomorrow. I brought in a 32 ounce bottle of water the first 2 days, but I'm willing to bet I sweat out a lot more than 32 ounces, so I'll be curious to see if I drop water weight.

RM said...

And then you're going to take pictures of yourself, or have your brother do it, and then post it to Facebook.

Collin said...

Hahahaha. Today I did 23 minutes with 32 ounces of water and weighed myself pre and post. Actually, I was still wet when I weighed myself afterwards, so I was up 1 pound. I didn't think to weigh myself again after drying off, but I would assume I was somewhere around even.

gladfelter said...

I tried. But all I got was this lousy T-shirt with numbers 1,2,1,2,1,20,22,24,50